User talk:Shisma

Jump to navigation Jump to search

About this board

Previous discussion was archived at User talk:Shisma/Archive 1 on 2019-05-26.

MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Wikidata weekly summary #637"
MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Wikidata weekly summary #536"
MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Wikidata weekly summary #635"
MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Wikidata weekly summary #634"
MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Wikidata weekly summary #633"
Kirilloparma (talkcontribs)

When you want to add a reference to any statement, please avoid using reference URL (P854) property (as here) when there is an external identifier property in Wikidata. In this case, you should have used this property (as reference) instead of P854. I don't know who created the Wikidata for Firefox tool, but this should be fixed as soon as possible, as it is semantically incorrect. See for example how the UseAsRef tool works, this is exactly what is expected from Wikidata for Firefox. In a nutshell: when we have an external identifier property in Wikidata, it is that property that should be used in references, not P854.

Shisma (talkcontribs)
Shisma (talkcontribs)

Correct me if I'm wrong: It seems to me UseAsRef allows a human user, to use an external id statement as a source on a different statement that a human user has verified intrinsicly contain information to be referenced.

For example:

  1. title (P1476) → Quizzical
  2. ‎Playdate Catalog ID (P12125)318641

a human could assume that if statement 1. is true, a url that can be derived from statement 2. would contain a proof for it.

Is this the idea?

Kirilloparma (talkcontribs)

Yes, that's the idea. A person who sees that a statement is true (let's say date of birth (P569)), then another property of the external identifier (let's say danskfodbold.com player ID (P12827)) can be a reference to confirm that statement, but instead of using the semantically incorrect and broad in scope property reference URL (P854), it should be exactly used (as in the example) danskfodbold.com player ID (P12827) property.

This is what it's supposed to look like:

Karim Zaza (Q945746)

date of birth
Normal rank 9 January 1975
1 reference


add value

And NOT like this as the Wikidata for Firefox tool suggests on a regular basis:

Karim Zaza (Q945746)

date of birth
Normal rank 9 January 1975
1 reference
reference URL https://danskfodbold.com/spiller.php?spillerid=10156
title danskfodbold.com - DBU's Officielle Statistikere
retrieved 21 June 2024
add reference


add value

Regards

Shisma (talkcontribs)

I think both reference types are alright. stated in works best in situations where a statement is derived from a database dump/extract, where the statement might not even be visible under a certain url. reference url is appropriate where a url holding the statement is known but the presence of an intrinsic connection to the database entry is uncertain. None of the two options are any better or worse: The difference is merely how the information was retrieved.

Wikidata for Web does not know database extracts: it only ever sees urls and can therefore only make reference statements for urls. Therefore I think reference url is a good default. However I could allow the user to choose which reference type is a better source for a particular statement. What do you think about this?

Kirilloparma (talkcontribs)

> I think both reference types are alright.

In this case yes, and in this case no. In the first case, you can use any tool you want, because we are referencing a news article and Wikidata does not have a separate property for news articles of this database. In the second case, Wikidata for Firefox is not suitable because we already have an external identifier property and it is that property that should be in the references, not P854, which is the crux of the problem.

> stated in works best in situations where a statement is derived from a database dump/extract, where the statement might not even be visible under a certain url. reference url is appropriate where a url holding the statement is known but the presence of an intrinsic connection to the database entry is uncertain. None of the two options are any better or worse: The difference is merely how the information was retrieved.

It has nothing to do with stated in (P248) in or reference URL (P854) for those cases where we are referring to a URL that does not contain any identifiers. In our case, I am talking about the URL that is used by the formatter URL (P1630) property. We don't need to use reference URL (P854) at all if we already have an external identifier property. stated in (P248) again has nothing to do with it, although it is the one that increases "what links here" and it is advantageous. I still suggest you avoid using the problematic Wikidata for Firefox for references, since we have UseAsRef which does a great job and doesn't use P854 for external identifiers that existing on Wikidata.

> Wikidata for Web does not know database extracts: it only ever sees urls and can therefore only make reference statements for urls

And that's the problem.

> Therefore I think reference url is a good default.

I don't think this is the right approach. By using reference URL (P854) we are only increasing its usability, and the external identifier property is essentially not used at all. What's the point of creating external identifier properties then if we don't even use them later and prefer P854? It's such a waste! Question: why did you propose this property that I created later? Let's say we're going to use this property and P854 in references (see ), okay, but what about the property itself? And here is the result, the property itself is used only 2 times in the references, that's the "waste" I'm talking about. Regards

Reply to "P854"
MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Weekly Summary #632"
MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Wikidata weekly summary #631"
MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)

Reply to "Wikidata weekly summary #630"
MediaWiki message delivery (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Wikidata weekly summary #629"